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00:00

Charlie Rose: Jeff Bezos founded Amazon in 1994 out of his garage as an online bookseller. Today, it is among the world's most valuable companies. He is one of the world's richest people, second only to Bill Gates. Amazon's ambition is to sell everything to everybody. Amazon's reach spans well beyond its retailing roots. Amazon Web Services is a leading company in the Cloud. In January, Amazon became the first digital streaming service to win a Golden Globe for best T.V. series. Jeff Bezos had many passions. He founded the aerospace company Blue Origin to lower the cost of space travel and increase its safety. In 2013, he purchased "The Washington Post." I met with him earlier today at the Economic Club here in New York. Here is that conversation. What is it that Amazon wants to be?

00:50

Jeff Bezos: Well, there are a couple of answers to that. Probably the biggest one, the best way, if I have to choose a single way to answer that question, is the thing that connects everything that Amazon does is the number one -- our number one conviction and idea and philosophy and principle which is customer obsession, as opposed to competitor obsession. And so we are always focused on the customer, working backwards from the customer's needs, developing new skills internally so that we can satisfy what we perceive to be future customer needs. We have a whole working backward process that starts with the customer needs and works backwards. So that is really, if you look at, seems like we are in a bunch of different businesses. So we have Amazon Web Services which is completely different from our, you know, Amazon Prime Business or Amazon Marketplace, or Amazon Studios, and so on. But really, the way that the businesses are run is very, very similar. And it all starts with, it's not just customer obsession, that is the number one one. But we have a very inventive culture, so we like to pioneer invent. There are other very effective business strategies. Pioneering is not the only effective business strategy. In fact, some people would argue it's not the most effective one. Close following can be a very good business strategy and it's worked many times if you look at the history of business. But it isn't who we are. Willingness to think long-term. I think that is another common thread that runs through every single thing we do. We are very happy to invest in new initiatives that are very risky, for five to seven years, which most companies won't do that. Companies will invest for very long periods of time, and they should in those cases where the outcomes are more certain. It's the combination of the risk-taking and the long-term outlook that make Amazon, not unique, but special in a smaller crowd. And then finally, taking real pride in operational excellence, so just doing things well, finding defects, and working backwards. That is all the incremental improvement that in business, most successful companies are very good at this one. If you are not good at finding defects, finding the root cause of the defects, fixing that root cause, you don't want to ever let defects flow downstream. That is a key part of doing a good job in any business in my opinion.

03:33

Charlie Rose: You still want to sell everything to everybody.

03:35

Jeff Bezos: Yeah, for sure. We started, just remember, 20 years ago, we were selling only books. I was driving all the packages to the post office myself. I thought maybe one day we would be able to afford a forklift. And it is very, it's very, very different today. But we, over time, we added music and we added videos. And then I sent an email message out to the customer base, actually a thousand randomly selected customers, and I said, besides books, music and video, what would you like to see us sell? And the list came back incredibly long. It was basically just whatever the person had on their mind right now. One of customers said, I wish you sold windshield wipers because I need windshield wipers for my car. A light kind of went on in my head. You know, people -- people will want to use this new fangled e-commerce way of shopping for everything. Because people are very convenience-motivated. And if we can do it, so that really started the kind of the expansion into all categories, consumer electronics, and then apparel, and so on.

04:49

Charlie Rose: Take one example, apparel, you now have I think outpaced Macy's as the largest apparel seller in the world.

04:56

Jeff Bezos: Yeah, I don't know -- I've seen those headlines. I actually have not tried to track that. Back to not being competitor obsessed. But you know, we are selling a lot of apparel. And that team is doing a fantastic job. I do think, you know, if we're not the largest, we're among the largest apparel sellers in the world. And there is lots of room. You know, we keep improving. I think if you were to talk to our apparel team, they would tell you that they don't think we're very good at it yet. And still the business is going very well. So I am never disappointed when we're not good at something because I think, well think how good it's going to work when we are good at it. And the apparel is like that. There is so much opportunity. Nobody really knows how to do a great job of offering -- apparel online yet. And we have tons of invention and ideas and working our way through that experimental list.

05:58

Charlie Rose: You have said that there's three pillars -- the Marketplace, Amazon Prime, and Amazon Web Services.

06:04

Jeff Bezos: That's right.

06:05

Charlie Rose: Let's go in reverse order. Amazon Web Services now is the largest contributor to revenue it is said.

06:12

Jeff Bezos: Well, not to revenue. It's a big contributor to profit. Our retail business, by the way, in our established countries, is also very profitable. We keep investing so we are investing in video, original content with Amazon Studios and so on. But Amazon Web Services is a -- is remarkable I think for a couple of reasons. It follows all these principles that I laid out at the beginning. But one of the most unusual things that happened with Amazon Web Services is the amount of runway that we got, which is a gift, before we faced like-minded competition, we had -- it appears to me just empirically that if you invent a new way of doing something, typically if you are lucky, you get about two years of runway before competitors copy your idea. And two years is actually a pretty long time in a fast-moving industry so that's a big head start. For whatever reason, and I have a hypothesis of what the reason is. But for whatever reason, Amazon Web Services got seven years of runway before we faced like-minded competition. There were other people doing similar kinds of things but not the same way and not with the same approach and same mindset. And in my experience, that's unheard of to get so much runway. And I think the reason that that happened is because the incumbents in technology for enterprises, sort of infrastructure technology for enterprises, thought that what we were doing was just so damn weird that it could never work. And so we just kept very quiet about it. And we knew it was working, you know, and we would read news stories that would say things like, do you really think anybody is going to buy a mission critical enterprise infrastructure from an online bookseller? And we would look at that, you know, and certain people were praying on that and we would read those articles and we would look at our business statement and we would be like, well, they are. (LAUGHTER) So we kind of knew. But it was, so we got very lucky. That was a gift. And what that allowed us to do was build a gigantic advantage in terms of the feature set and the service offerings and the cost structure and everything else, that you just can't wave a magic wand and do that quickly. It takes years and years.

08:56

Charlie Rose: But the central point seemed to me --

08:57

Jeff Bezos: And now we're not stopping, so that team is, you know, every year, 500, 600, 700, 800 new features and services, so they keep pushing on that. That team is just doing an amazing job.

09:09

Charlie Rose: What's interesting to me is that you were doing it for yourself, these are things you were doing for yourself and you said, if we are you doing it for ourselves.

09:16

Jeff Bezos: This is true. So the founding idea behind Amazon Web Services is that our applications engineers and our networking and data center engineers were spending way too much time coordinating. And so the applications engineers are the ones who build the things that customers actually interact with, they drive the business forward, they drive revenues. Building data centers and building, you know, putting servers in the data centers and building fleets of servers and getting the right levels of capacity and making sure all the operating systems versions were correct and so on and so on. Databases on top of that, make sure the versions of those are correct, all the networking that goes with it. This stuff is unbelievably complicated and hard, every bit as hard as building the application layer. But it doesn't really add any value to the application layer. It's -- it's a kind of price of admission. It's one of those things that has to be done perfectly but it's not secret sauce. It's not going to change the way you run your business. And the -- and what we wanted to do was reduce those fine-grained conversations that the application engineers were having with the networking engineers. And so we said we should just create a set of APIs, application programming interfaces, harden those. And then the teams can discuss the road map next year, two years from now, three years from now. They can discuss in a course-grained way the road map of what APIs we should expose and then it will simplify those conversations and give a lot of stability and they won't need to do all these silly fine-grained coordination conversations. And so we started designing that. And the second we started writing it down, we realized wait a second, what we're building here, we need. Amazon.com, the retailer needs these things. But pretty soon everybody is going to need these things. And so with a little extra work, we can turn what we were going to build just for ourselves into a service for the world. And that's what we did. And it is now, you know, a very successful, large --

11:32

Charlie Rose: The largest factor in the Cloud.

11:34

Jeff Bezos: By far.

11:35

Charlie Rose: And CIA and a lot of other clients come to you.

11:37

Jeff Bezos: Yes.

11:38

Charlie Rose: So you also have a large shipping contingent within your own operation.

11:44

Jeff Bezos: Yes, we do.

11:45

Charlie Rose: And there are some --

11:46

Jeff Bezos: We do billions of packages a year and it takes a lot of logistics.

11:51

Charlie Rose: So you are getting into the shipping business.

11:53

Jeff Bezos: We have an A plus team.

11:55

Charlie Rose: So is it the same model? Are you doing something and you are doing it well, and we say, we could do this for other people, so we're going to get into the shipping business?

12:03

Jeff Bezos: Not quite. It's a little bit different. Here we're really being driven by capacity needs, especially if you look at the holiday selling season. The fact of the matter is that we need all of the capacity that we can get from the established transportation providers like U.S. Postal Service and UPS. We will take all the capacity that they can give us. And I am just talking about the U.S. The same story is playing right around the world, the Royal Mail and Deutsche Post and so on. And then in addition to that, we need more capacity, especially at peak. Just in order to continue to grow our business. So we have kind of been forced into developing expertise in the last mile. And of course we do use it for our third-party business so third-party sellers can now use the Marketplace business. We offer a service called "Fulfilled by Amazon" where third-party sellers can put their inventory in our fulfillment centers. And then we handle all of the fulfillment and returns and customer service and everything else for them. And so we are, you know, that logistics chain is going to work for us, and for third-party sellers. And it's really crucial that we continue to build that out.

13:20

Charlie Rose: So FedEx and UPS need not worry.

13:23

Jeff Bezos: No, no. If you look at those guys are going to be able to continue to grow and we're going to continue to grow with them, and just, and still need additional capacity.

13:35

Charlie Rose: The other thing is Amazon Prime, the second pillar, Amazon Prime, some what, 65 million members of Amazon Prime?

13:44

Jeff Bezos: We don't reveal that. So I don't want to nod. (LAUGHTER)

13:49

Charlie Rose: Amazon is reasonably secretive.

13:52

Jeff Bezos: Well, we don't want to reveal things that will help competitors or alert them. And it's also just really hard to figure out which things would help them. You know, like we certainly got a bigger window, I was talking about our AWS business and how we got such a long runway. If we had been out there bragging about that business, we would have attracted attention from incumbents, much sooner than what actually happened. And so there is no reason in business usually to boast about your accomplishments. People will figure them out. Boasting about the number of Prime members won't make anybody more likely to join Prime, in my opinion. People already know that a lot of people are Prime members. Their friends are already Prime members. So it's true that -- that in consumer businesses and in enterprise businesses that people, to some degree, like to be with the leader and like to be in the crowd. And so you do want people to know that you are a leader. You do want people to know that the offerings are successful and that lots of people are using them. But you don't have to quantity that for consumers or enterprises.

15:07

Charlie Rose: Let's assume it is a large number.

15:09

Jeff Bezos: It's a large number. (LAUGHTER)

15:13

Charlie Rose: Why is it so crucial for your future Prime?

15:17

Jeff Bezos: Well, Prime is, what we want Prime to be and what we have developed it into over time is, it's the best of Amazon. So you can get, basically if you join Prime, we want to have our core service be outstanding, and anybody who wants to use Amazon and not be a Prime member should have a great experience. And people who are not Prime members, for example, can still get free shipping. They have to buy a certain number of products or certain thing to get above a certain product kind of order basket hurdle, I think it's $49. And if they get above that $49 hurdle, then they can get free shipping. And so what we did with Prime is say look, you know, you can get free shipping without joining Prime, but if you want fast free shipping, our best service, then you need to join Prime.

16:18

Charlie Rose: It's $99 a year.

16:19

Jeff Bezos: It's $99 a year. And then we started adding other benefits to it that we know that people like. So we started out -- we added Prime Video which has been a very successful new benefit for Prime. We started many years ago. We added just 10 or 20,000 shows. And they were all licensed and they were all reruns. Things like Gilligan's island. And it was kind of a by the way offering. So, you know, we said, look, you already are a Prime member, here is a new benefit. We know it's not the most important T.V. shows in the world, but it also isn't costing you anything extra. So it grew. Now we're doing, you know, Emmy award-winning and Golden Globe award-winning original content that again, you get access to just at no additional charge, just being a Prime member.

17:09

Charlie Rose: So getting into the creative part of the entertainment business, what was the motivation for that?

17:13

Jeff Bezos: Well, from a business point of view, there are two different ways to think about that. We always start with the customer-centric point of view. And then so how can we, if we're going to make original content which Amazon Studios is doing, how can it be better or different from the -- so much content that is out there that you could license already and not have to make yourself. And the fact of the matter is that the over the top streaming services with a subscription model can have -- can in fact make different kinds of content, so a show like "Transparent" which has won Golden Globes and Emmys is not ever -- it is not a show that could be successfully done on broadcast T.V. because broadcast T.V. needs a much bigger audience for that. "Transparent" -- we want to make shows that are somebody's favorite show. And on broadcast T.V., you can be very happy if you have a big show that is, you know, 20 million people's third favorite show. And so you can actually think about the creative process a little differently. You can attract different storytellers. You can go for stories that are narrower but incredibly powerful and well told. "Mozart in the Jungle" is the same way. I don't see how "Mozart in the Jungle" another one that has won Golden Globes and Emmys, I don't see how it could be successful on broadcast T.V. either. So you get -- we can attract a storyteller who wants to tell a certain kind of story. Then there are other things that are just tailwinds in this business, that are happening because of HBO and Netflix and others that, you know, ten years ago, you couldn't get A List Talent to do T.V. They perceived it as stigmatizing. And today that is just completely not. Today, A List Talent wants to do serialized T.V. Because the quality of the storytelling is so high, that it's just completely flipped on its head.

19:14

Charlie Rose: Does it benefit your traditional e-commerce businesses? The fact that you have a presence in entertainment and the fact that you went --

19:21

Jeff Bezos: Totally.

19:22

Charlie Rose: You sell things because you win awards in Hollywood.

19:25

Jeff Bezos: There is the customer experience part of -- you know, we want storytellers with guts and taste to do things that are somebody's favorite show. And then let's talk about the business side of that. Why these shows are expensive? Man in the High Castle, which is our most watched and one of our highest rated shows, and you should watch it if you haven't seen it, Hitler won World War II, it's an alternative history, and it's 1962, and the Nazis control the east coast and the Japanese control the west coast. It's creepy. And but that show is super expensive to make. And so how do you pay for that content? That's the business side of this.

20:10

Charlie Rose: Right.

20:11

Jeff Bezos: The business side is very unique to Amazon. I don't think there's another model out there like it. And that is when you become a Prime member, you buy more from us. You say to yourself, well, what else -- now that I have paid my $99 a year, how else can I use this membership? And so when people join Prime, they buy more shoes, they buy more diapers, they buy more dishwashing detergent, they buy more books and electronics and toys and so on and so on. And so we really want people to join Prime. And we really want people to renew their Prime membership. And so when we make, when we win a Golden Globe, for us, what we are tying that to, and we can see -- we can see this in the metrics, that people who use Prime Video are more likely to convert from free trial lists to paid Prime members and are more likely to convert from paid Prime members, their next time, not convert but to renew for a subsequent year. And so that's what closes the loop on the business side. You don't do things for business reasons. You need to do things for the customer experience reasons. But you need to know how you are going to pay for that customer experience. You need to close the loop on the business side too.

21:37

Charlie Rose: So I have listed three pillars. What might be the fourth pillar?

21:42

Jeff Bezos: Well, it could be, we don't know yet is the real answer. And I think it's very hard to -- we do a lot of different things. And these things, the fourth one will rise and distinguish itself. We'll put energy into many things. I'm optimistic about things like Amazon Studios, so the original content, I think that actually could become a fourth pillar on its own. And I think that what we are doing with natural language understanding and Echo and Alexa could become a fourth pillar.

22:12

Charlie Rose: Everybody talks about artificial intelligence, everybody, and everybody is investing.

22:16

Jeff Bezos: And by the way, rightly so, this is the real thing.

22:21

Charlie Rose: Enlarge on that and also on the idea of what Echo is and how it may very well be the beginning on the edge, the wedge into artificial intelligence, that benefits everybody.

22:34

Jeff Bezos: Well, Echo is a small black cylinder that is -- it has seven microphones on the top and has a speaker inside and a digital signal processor and some other computer inside. It's WiFi-connected to the Cloud. And Alexa, the agent -- the artificially intelligent agent that lives in the Cloud will talk to you through Alexa -- through Echo. And one of the interesting things about Echo, the device, is it uses those seven microphones to do something called beam forming. And so basically it can hear you very well even in a very loud kitchen environment. For example, you have the dishwasher running and you have the sink running water and maybe somebody is playing the television set in the living room. And Alexa can still hear you because of that digital signal processing. And so you can say, Alexa, what time is it? Alexa, what is the weather today? Alexa, and in natural language, Alexa, play a certain song, et cetera, et cetera. And people really -- it's just been a big hit. We launched it a few years ago. It has vastly exceeded our expectations in terms of volume. We have literally thousands of people dedicated to working on it.

23:53

Charlie Rose: And Google wants to be in that business and everybody else wants to be in that business.

23:56

Jeff Bezos: Everybody will want to be in that business. And so here you know we got the kind of standard, you know, two, two and a half year head start.

24:05

Charlie Rose: Let me talk about "The Washington Post."

24:06

Jeff Bezos: Yeah.

24:08

Charlie Rose: You bought "The Washington Post" without doing any due diligence. You were so impressed with --

24:12

Jeff Bezos: Well, I did no due diligence because I knew Don Graham for 15 years.

24:18

Charlie Rose: Did he come to you because he needed a --

24:20

Jeff Bezos: If any of you know Don Graham, he is possibly the most honorable person in the world. So he just laid out all the warts for me. He laid out all of the great things about "The Post" for me. And no amount of due diligence could ever have gotten to more clarity than just talking to Don for several hours.

24:39

Charlie Rose: Why did you buy it?

24:41

Jeff Bezos: I bought it because it's important. So I would never buy a financially upside down salty snack food company. You know, that doesn't make any sense to me. But "The Washington Post" is important. And so it makes sense to me to take something like that, and I also am optimistic. And I thought there were some ways to make it -- I want it to be a self-sustaining, profitable enterprise. I think that would be healthy for "The Post." And I think it can be done. And our approach is actually very, very simple. We need to go -- it's hard to execute on and it will take time but the approach is simple. We need to go from making a relatively large amount of money per reader on a relatively small number of readers. That is the historic model of "The Post", to a model where we make a relatively small amount of money per reader on a very large number of readers. That is the new model.

25:37

Charlie Rose: But that's your business model too, isn't it?

25:39

Jeff Bezos: That is the better business model for the internet era. And the Post is unusual and this is one of the things from a business point of view why I'm so optimistic about "The Post," is that it can go from being -- it has historically been a local paper. A very good local paper. But it happens to be a local paper situated in the capital city of the United States of America. And so it has -- it's kind of geographic location is superb for converting it from being a local paper to a national and even a global publication. And so that, and that's a gift that the internet brings. To do national and global publication in the days of print, super expensive. You have to figure out how to have printing presses everywhere and distribution everywhere, physical distribution, very challenging. Today, that piece is easy. To get global distribution in digital form is extraordinarily simple.

26:35

Charlie Rose: Because it is an important newspaper in the nation's capital and most powerful country in the world, did you want it also because it would give you political influence?

26:43

Jeff Bezos: No. And I think one of the reasons that Don Graham liked me as an owner is because he didn't think I would politicize it.

26:54

Charlie Rose: Yeah.

26:54

Jeff Bezos: And so, you know, I think because it is in the capital city of the United States of America, it should not be, you know, you take the British model of newspapers and, you know, the kind of left wing paper or right wing paper. And there are certain people who if they had bought "The Washington Post" would have converted it in one of those directions. And I don't think that would be healthy for "The Post" or healthy for the country and plus in that respect, I'm also a good owner because I'm so damn busy. Honestly.

27:33

Charlie Rose: You're not hanging out in the newsroom.

27:34

Jeff Bezos: I have no desire to meddle. I have no desire to opine on everything. I can't -- I don't have the time to be in newsroom every day or even for the editorial pages. And, by the way, it's a very difficult business that needs to be done by professionals. I sometimes get asked, you know, do you opine in the newsroom or get involved in newsroom activities. I'm like, if you know -- if you know as I do now a little bit about newsrooms, you will see, it would be exactly the equivalent of me walking into a surgical theater while my son was having brain surgery and meddling with the brain surgeon. It doesn't make sense. These are super complex -- being the executive editor of "The Post", we have Marty Baron who, in my opinion, is the best executive editor in the world. He and his team, they are doing an unbelievably good job. And again, back to, you know, I have been talking about the business model of "The Post" we had to transition into this new way of having a small amount of money with lot of -- per reader, with lots of readers. The real reason this could work is because "The Post" is creating riveting coverage, and they're doing it. They are -- you can't, you know, turn around a restaurant with business techniques if the food isn't delicious. And we have delicious content, you know, "The Post" is just riveting, they are killing it. I am so proud of that team.

29:07

Charlie Rose: People in my profession are great admirers of what "The Washington Post" is today under Marty Baron's leadership.

29:13

Jeff Bezos: Totally.

29:14

Charlie Rose: Especially in foreign coverage.

29:15

Jeff Bezos: Yes. And by the way, Marty would be the first one to tell you this, it is his team, I mean, he put those people in place and he has given them lots of kind of energy and they're proud of the product they're creating. "The Post" also has a culture that -- I also have no desire to change the culture of "The Post", that would be so counterproductive. They already have a great culture and it comes all the way -- you know it is decades old. And what you want to do with something like "The Post" that has a very healthy decades-old culture is instead of trying to change it, you want to kind of uncover it and reveal it and burnish it. And the more I've gotten to know about "The Post", I realize the distinguishing feature of "The Post" compared to some other very high quality newspapers is "The Post" has more swagger. They are, they are swashbuckling, but they are professional swashbucklers which is very important because non-professional swashbuckling just gets you killed. You know, you can't do that, and they are just incredible.

30:18

Charlie Rose: Blue Origin. You and I sat last night with a former astronaut.

30:24

Jeff Bezos: That was very fun, Scott Kelly.

30:26

Charlie Rose: Scott Kelly who was there at the International Space Station for, I don't know how many days. What is it that you hope to accomplish?

30:35

Jeff Bezos: In space.

30:36

Charlie Rose: In space.

30:37

Jeff Bezos: Well, this is, first of all, let's back up. This is a childhood dream. I fell in love with the idea of space and space exploration and space travel when I was five years old. I watched Neil Armstrong step onto the moon. You don't choose your passions, your passions choose you. I -- so I am infected with this idea. I couldn't ever stop thinking about space. I have been thinking about it ever since then. And I just -- so again, you know, I did not, when I started Blue Origin, which is the name of this space company, I did not make a list of all the businesses in the world where I thought I might get the highest return on invested capital. And it was driven by passion and curiosity and the need to explore the things that I care about. And so we have, over time, built a brilliant team, there are now over 800 people at Blue Origin, we have a suborbital tourism vehicle called "New Shepherd" that flies like a regular rocket when it launches and then lands on its tail like a Buck Rogers rocket. We have used the same vehicle, it is reusable. We used the same vehicle five times --

31:56

Charlie Rose: And that's key to the business of going into space.

31:58

Jeff Bezos: That's the absolute key. If you look -- if you ask the question, why is space travel so expensive? There is one reason, and it's because we throw the hardware away every time after using it. It is all expendable. And even in the past when we have done things that were sort of semi-reusable, they weren't really what I would call operable reusability because they were disassembled, inspected and then put back together. So you can imagine how expensive air travel would be if, after your Hawaii vacation, you get to Hawaii and -- well, if they throw the 747 away, it is going to be really expensive but it is also going to be super expensive if, after you get to Hawaii, they disassemble the whole thing, inspect every part and put it all back together before you're allowed to fly again. That was the problem with the space shuttle. And so, it is really important that you design the vehicle from the beginning for highly operable reusability. The propellants are incredibly low cost. People don't know this about rockets, but a big rocket, let's say, has a million pounds of propellant on board, two-thirds of that may be liquid oxygen, say 600,000 pounds or so of liquid oxygen. Do you know how much liquid oxygen costs? Ten cents a pound. So, that is $60,000 worth of liquid oxygen, and then add the fuel costs in. You are still talking about a few hundred thousand dollars in propellant costs. And the launch, you know, costs on the order of $60 million, $70 million, $80 million, $100 million, $150 million. So how do you get from a $100 million -- $100 million to $300,000 of propellants -- it's simple, you are throwing the hardware away. And so it's really not -- the engineering challenge involved in building a highly operable reusable vehicle is gigantic. But if you can do that, it is a game changer. You change everything. And now why -- to your original question. That is sort of the background. I believe it's incredibly important that we humans go out into space and the primary reason, if you think long-term about this, is we need to do that to preserve the earth. So I am not -- I'm not one of the Plan B guys. There is a conventional -- there is a kind of conventional wisdom that is quite common that one of the reasons we need to go into space and settle another planet is as a kind of backup for humanity, you know, if earth gets destroyed, at least we have this other place. And I don't like that -- that's not motivating for me. But what -- because I'll tell you what we know for sure. We have now sent robotic probes to every planet in this solar system. We have taken close looks at them all, and believe me, this is the best planet. (LAUGHTER) It is not even close. So, what you need to do, and if you look at -- if you want a thriving, growing civilization, you want population growth to continue, you want a whole bunch of things to continue. And I believe that in the next few hundred years, what will happen is we will move all heavy industry into space for a whole bunch of practical reasons, easier access to resources of all kinds, material resources as well as energy. If you think about solar energy on Earth, it is inherently problematic because it only is available half the time. In space, solar energy is available 24/7. But the list of practical reasons why that --

35:40

Charlie Rose: But you also have to build an infrastructure up there.

35:42

Jeff Bezos: Yeah, and that's why you need really low cost. You need to shrink the cost of lifting mass into space from Earth by two orders of magnitude. You need to reduce that cost by a hundred times and then you can do these things. And then Blue Origin is not going to do this all by ourselves. What I want to do with Blue Origin is build heavy-lifting infrastructure that lowers the cost of access to space so that the next generation of entrepreneurs can have a dynamic entrepreneurial explosion in space. That is how we will move all heavy industry into space and then ultimately Earth can be effectively zoned, residential and light industrial.

36:25

Charlie Rose: Finally, and unlike the internet there was infrastructure there, so when you jumped into the internet there was always infrastructure there.

36:32

Jeff Bezos: This is the key point, when entrepreneurs -- so Amazon was a tiny, little company that started with four people, and that -- we could only do, we built Amazon because we didn't have to do any of the heavy lifting. The transportation and logistics infrastructure of U.S. Postal Service which would have been hundreds of billions in CapEx, already existed. We didn't have to build the internet, it was run on, on long distance cables that were actually put in the ground for long-distance phone calls. And we didn't have to build a payment system, the credit card system already existed. So all these things would have been tens of billions or hundreds of billions in CapEx and we got to rest on top of them. That's why you don't see entrepreneurial dynamism in space like you do on the internet. On the internet, two kids in a dorm room can take, change an industry completely, and you can't do that in space. The price of admission is too high. Because the -- just getting to space is so expensive. And so if we can change, if I'm 80 years old, looking back on my life and the one thing I have done is make it so that there is this gigantic entrepreneurial explosion in space for the next generation, I will be a happy, happy man.

37:41

Charlie Rose: OK, one other thing I want to say before we go and the last question, you and Bill Gates got together and started something called Grail, a company fighting cancer.

37:48

Jeff Bezos: Yes.

37:49

Charlie Rose: And the idea is?

37:51

Jeff Bezos: The science of that is unbelievable. And basically, you can sequence -- tumors shed little bits of DNA into your bloodstream. And you can use sequencing technology to amplify those things and then detect cancers at very, very early stages. And for a lot of cancers early detection is a big deal. So this is -- the science of this is very promising, very real, and it might not work.

38:20

Charlie Rose: The market --

38:21

Jeff Bezos: But it might. And I'm optimistic.

38:23

Charlie Rose: The market cap --

38:24

Jeff Bezos: If it does work, it's a big, big deal.

38:27

Charlie Rose: The market cap of Amazon has made you the second wealthiest person in the world. Second to Bill Gates. Can you imagine at some point in your life pursuing the kind of philanthropy?

38:39

Jeff Bezos: Well, yeah. If there is anything left after I finish building Blue Origin. (LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE) We'll see. it's -- again, I did not choose Blue Origin based on -- you know, basically what I am doing right now is taking my Amazon winnings and investing them. Every time you see me sell stock on Amazon, it's send more money to the Blue Origin team. (LAUGHTER)

39:08

Charlie Rose: I asked Jeff last night at the Natural Museum of History, what was the return on investment for Blue Origin, and he said to me as he slapped me, that is a rude question.

39:16

Jeff Bezos: That is a very rude question. (LAUGHTER) And, by the way, I do believe that Blue Origin can be a sustainable, profitable enterprise one day. But that is an investment horizon that would make most reasonable investors sick to their stomach.

39:30

Charlie Rose: By 2018, somebody will be up on a vessel.

39:32

Jeff Bezos: Yeah. We are on track on our suborbital vehicle "New Shepherd" to fly paying passengers, hopefully in 2018. I keep telling the team, it's not a race. We'll do it when it's safe. But we're on track right now for 2018.

39:45

Charlie Rose: On behalf of everybody in this room, and the Economic Club of New York, thank you, Jeff Bezos.

39:49

Jeff Bezos: Thank you, Charlie. (APPLAUSE)